Outside air temp affect on cook times

[Roaniecowpony]

This is why science is so fun, and why I prefer the experimental sciences to theoretical science! I’d like to preface this by stating that I’m not a food scientist, and there are people here who know more than I do. But my good friend is a food scientist, so I can find a definitive answer to the aged meat question for you. Sometimes, there are variables that I haven’t thought about, because my degrees are in different scientific fields. In addition, thermodynamics is very complex, and molecular hydration shell entropy will forever haunt me! Without boring everyone with long equations that mean very little to most people, and comparing each variable for a bunch of molecular compounds, I’ll try to keep this brief, and give the Cliff Notes version.

1. There is a difference between thermodiffusion involving solids, liquids (the Soret coefficient), and gases. Probably the least understood are liquids (see the aforementioned hydration shell entropy). Gases and aerosol particles (like smoke) can have different barriers to diffusion into another substance, depending on the following:
a. The polarity and ionization potential of the molecules involved. Polar molecules and ionic compounds (salt, etc.) are only dissolved in polar liquids, such as water. Nonpolar molecules are only dissolved in nonpolar liquids, such as oil/fat. Polar aprotic solvents are a different beast, but I’m going to skip them, because you shouldn’t have much of those in your food .
b. The presence or absence of a liquid will change the way that substances diffuse, as mentioned above. Diffusion is more difficult through a solid substance due to decreased particle motion and the space between molecules. This partially explains the difference between a polyester/rayon/nylon/ etc. couch, and a liquid-rich substance, such as meat.
c. The molecule itself. Totally unrelated to temperature, some molecules aren’t “structurally bonded,” so they ionize and diffuse easier. Others have extremely strong covalent bonds and behave differently. Size of the molecule also affects the ability to diffuse, especially if a cell membrane is involved (something living things have- more on that later). The molecular elements and structure itself will give each substance different characteristics of density, elasticity, and plasticity, and different molecules will behave differently when exposed to various temperatures. All of that can change how molecules diffuse through that substance. One of the hardest things for me to get used to in my advanced inorganic chemistry courses was the unpredictability of various elements and molecules, because there weren’t a lot of reliable patterns (at least not to me, but I don’t have a PhD in chemical engineering ).
d. There are a lot of other variables of the elements in each specific molecule, including thermal conductivity, specific heat capacity, electronegativity, etc.
e. Lastly (at least for now, off the top of my exhausted brain), meat is a formerly living thing. It’s not just a compound substance, but a variety of substances with complex organization, such as cellular membranes, intercellular and extracellular fluids, pores, and a bunch of other things. Molecules will move through each of these structures differently, AND dead tissues behave differently than living tissues.

All of this is why I’d rather just perform an experiment instead of work off of theory!

All right, now that I’ve thoroughly bored the living daylights out of everyone here, I think the biggest difference in your aged meat could be hydration. Less hydration would mean less attraction of smoke molecules, and would change the diffusion of those molecules into the meat. Secondly, if there is any fat or oil on the surface, that will result in less attraction and diffusion. Most seasonings contain ionic compounds and polar molecules that should play well with the polar smoke molecules.

Again, there are people here who know far more than I do. I’ll also try to get in touch with my friend for a more definitive answer on aged meat .

Who wants ice cream?

I skipped to the last line.

 

[SmokeZilla]

Thank you, @SmokeZilla ! I truly appreciate the respectful exchanges of information here. I’m always looking to learn more, and that’s some pretty awesome knowledge you just dropped there! I think you’ll find that there are a lot of very intelligent, insanely knowledgeable members here, many of whom are a lot smarter than I am. That’s just one of the reasons I am slightly addicted to this place .

Also, I think you’ll enjoy a lot of Meathead’s resources, if you haven’t already, such as amazingribs.com and his book. The science is solid, and he has some experiments that explain things in a much more effective way than I can.

Happy cooking, and thank you to all of you for your patience while I went into full nerd mode!

Thanks. I am familiar with that site. He is truly a talented pit-master. His approach is similar to Jeremy Yoder (Mad Scientist BBQ) but not as over the top as Alton Brown, who I also have a great deal of respect for, and have gone to see in person when he was touring. They take a scientific approach and their techniques are very informative. I recently watched a video where JY is walking back his historical perspective on ”clean smoke”. He came to the same conclusion that my Grandpa knew 70 years ago. If you control the smoke properly, it doesn’t always need to be “clean”. In fact, on the east coast of NC, my relatives would purposely put the meat in their smokehouses as the fire was building to increase the smoke’s flavor profile and subsequent penetration. When done properly, there was never a complaint. They would do whole cows (10-15 at a time) along with 10-20 pigs all at once. The would also sell salted, seasoned parts of the animals (way before they called it dry aging, haha, that could be stored for several years without refrigeration just like their ancestors did before anyone new of cold storage techniques.

My ask today for you and the other forum members, I am looking for suggestions on the “colder” temp I should start with for two 16lb (pretrimmed) briskets I will be doing this weekend. I want to try experimenting with the low temperature protein start method we were discussing in the earlier message exchange using the same process I have used for around 60 briskets that I’ve done over the last couple of years. My starting temp for the Costco packaged prime grade brisket is typically 55 degrees F. For fresh off the cow briskets that I occasionally buy from a ranch, I usually start at around 60, if I pick it up as it is being slaughtered (+/-12 hours) and they use my rub recipe to preseason the meat before I get there. (It‘s good to have friends with ranches, haha.) I anticipate replicating the same environmental conditions as before (ambient temp, humidity, altitude), same pellets and same cooking temperature settings. I will be using the Bull for one and a 60 year old New Braunsfel vertical cast iron stick burner for the other. I am intimately familiar with each device and will have friends that have consumed massive quantities of my briskets as the judges. Ultimately, I want to satisfy my curiosity that starting with a colder temp is better. Any suggestions?

 

[GLF35]

This is why I love the forum, it is not only informative, but also very entertaining!!!

 

[Mlmurrah]

I have not done any testing, but it has to be true. I bought a welding blanket at Harbor Freight to drape over the top in cold weather.

 

[SmokeZilla]

As discussed in my earlier post. I decided to experiment over the long weekend with 2 brisket cooks. As a reminder, we were discussing starting from “cold” (I chose 40 degrees F) versus my method of starting with the packer at approximately 68 degrees F (just below ambient for all practical purposes). In my feeble attempt to isolate or identify any differences in the methods, I tried to limit the variables to a few items. One was obvious, there was no way for me to get 2 briskets from the same cow. I did pick 2 that were within 1/2lb of each other (~14.86lbs), both from the cow’s right side, and I tried to pick similar fat content in both. When measured, the flats were almost identical until the transition to the point. Each point was the same approximate height and both packers were the same approximate width. I trimmed them almost identically each losing approximately 2.75lbs of fat each. They were prepared and seasoned the exact same way with the rub I have used over 50 times. They were both sitting in the dry rub for 22 hours. Now for the differences. I placed each packer in the refrigerator. However, I removed the ambient packer from the fridge 4.0 hours before the “cold” version. Instead of using multiple cookers, I put them both on the Bull using the following process.



I started both at ~180 degrees for the enhanced smoke for 90 minutes. I then moved the temp up to 230 degrees for the remaining cook time. The only thing noteworthy about the cooks was I let each hit 168 degrees before I pulled and wrapped with peach paper. Because the ambient packer reached temp (I pull at 195 degrees, IT) approximately 3.5 hours before the cold version, I removed it as normal and timed its rest period for 3 hours. When the cold reached 195 degrees, I pulled it and started the timer for its rest of 3 hours. At the end of the rest periods, I had some friends that were over for the celebration (approximately 20 adults and 12 ”junior” adults) do a blind sampling test at the 3 hour mark for each and then again (round 2 of their food fest) after both sat for 5 hours, I had them “fill up“ again. The results were interesting. All participants thought the smoke content was similar but 90 percent voted that the ambient had more flavor. When asked about the smoke rings, they thought the room temp was more pronounced and of a richer color (they called it the red ring thingy). One person said they thought the ambient was too “smokey” which proved there is no such thing as a perfect bell curve, again. They also voted almost unanimously that the ambient was juicier, more tender and had more flavor, although a couple of outliers stated they liked the cold version because the flat was more “well done”. When asked to explain “well done” they said they liked the crispier/brittle edges and the dryness of the cold version. I also noticed (I’ll try to provide pictures when I can) that the edges of the cold version were a little dryer as it was showing signs of “crumbling” and breaking off as I was slicing it. This is not a characteristic that I have seen before in my prior cooks. It was as if the meat was slightly dehydrated on the flat’s edges more than I have experienced. In contrast, the point of the packer on the cold version did retain additional moisture (which I like) and I can only think since it hit the same temp, that the cold method allowed the point’s fat to render slower thereby retaining more of the juices during the pre-wrap stages of the cook. In summary, either method is good depending on if you like your flat on the medium rare-medium versus well done. More testers voted that the smoke flavor starting with the warmer packer. was better, but to each their own. By the way, neither version was injected this time.



I apologize for the long read. Did anyone else do any experimentation? if so, what have your results led you to conclude?



“It’s a curse to have a curious mind with a pocketful of money.”

 

[JGW]

I think most pitmasters let the meat sit out and come up in temp. I know Aaron Franklin recommends about an hour, which is what I usually do with mine.

Since he’s done more of them than I ever will, and people line up hours before his restaurant opens, I’ll follow his recommendations.

 

[SmokeZilla]

I think most pitmasters let the meat sit out and come up in temp. I know Aaron Franklin recommends about an hour, which is what I usually do with mine.

Since he’s done more of them than I ever will, and people line up hours before his restaurant opens, I’ll follow his recommendations.

JGW,

Thanks for the feedback. I try to do the same. I typically leave it in a clean location and monitor the temp until it gets to ~60F, then off to the preheated grill it goes.

 

[IPlayWithMeat]

As discussed in my earlier post. I decided to experiment over the long weekend with 2 brisket cooks. As a reminder, we were discussing starting from “cold” (I chose 40 degrees F) versus my method of starting with the packer at approximately 68 degrees F (just below ambient for all practical purposes). In my feeble attempt to isolate or identify any differences in the methods, I tried to limit the variables to a few items. One was obvious, there was no way for me to get 2 briskets from the same cow. I did pick 2 that were within 1/2lb of each other (~14.86lbs), both from the cow’s right side, and I tried to pick similar fat content in both. When measured, the flats were almost identical until the transition to the point. Each point was the same approximate height and both packers were the same approximate width. I trimmed them almost identically each losing approximately 2.75lbs of fat each. They were prepared and seasoned the exact same way with the rub I have used over 50 times. They were both sitting in the dry rub for 22 hours. Now for the differences. I placed each packer in the refrigerator. However, I removed the ambient packer from the fridge 4.0 hours before the “cold” version. Instead of using multiple cookers, I put them both on the Bull using the following process.



I started both at ~180 degrees for the enhanced smoke for 90 minutes. I then moved the temp up to 230 degrees for the remaining cook time. The only thing noteworthy about the cooks was I let each hit 168 degrees before I pulled and wrapped with peach paper. Because the ambient packer reached temp (I pull at 195 degrees, IT) approximately 3.5 hours before the cold version, I removed it as normal and timed its rest period for 3 hours. When the cold reached 195 degrees, I pulled it and started the timer for its rest of 3 hours. At the end of the rest periods, I had some friends that were over for the celebration (approximately 20 adults and 12 ”junior” adults) do a blind sampling test at the 3 hour mark for each and then again (round 2 of their food fest) after both sat for 5 hours, I had them “fill up“ again. The results were interesting. All participants thought the smoke content was similar but 90 percent voted that the ambient had more flavor. When asked about the smoke rings, they thought the room temp was more pronounced and of a richer color (they called it the red ring thingy). One person said they thought the ambient was too “smokey” which proved there is no such thing as a perfect bell curve, again. They also voted almost unanimously that the ambient was juicier, more tender and had more flavor, although a couple of outliers stated they liked the cold version because the flat was more “well done”. When asked to explain “well done” they said they liked the crispier/brittle edges and the dryness of the cold version. I also noticed (I’ll try to provide pictures when I can) that the edges of the cold version were a little dryer as it was showing signs of “crumbling” and breaking off as I was slicing it. This is not a characteristic that I have seen before in my prior cooks. It was as if the meat was slightly dehydrated on the flat’s edges more than I have experienced. In contrast, the point of the packer on the cold version did retain additional moisture (which I like) and I can only think since it hit the same temp, that the cold method allowed the point’s fat to render slower thereby retaining more of the juices during the pre-wrap stages of the cook. In summary, either method is good depending on if you like your flat on the medium rare-medium versus well done. More testers voted that the smoke flavor starting with the warmer packer. was better, but to each their own. By the way, neither version was injected this time.



I apologize for the long read. Did anyone else do any experimentation? if so, what have your results led you to conclude?



“It’s a curse to have a curious mind with a pocketful of money.”

Thank you for the update!

To answer your earlier question, one of my refrigerators is at 33 degrees, and one is at 35 (measured air temperatures). I will try to remember to take an actual meat temp next time .

My findings have been a bit different on the quantity of smokiness, but again, there are a lot of variables in the meat out there. The most important thing is that you find out what you and your family like the best and go from there!

I’ve also found that sometimes, in the quest for one thing, something else is lost, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if juiciness was affected. Good observation there!

Have fun experimenting! Sometimes we follow the science and get exactly what we want. Other times, we follow the science and get Viagra instead of heart disease medication .

 

[C. Keeper]

Have fun experimenting! Sometimes we follow the science and get exactly what we want. Other times, we follow the science and get Viagra instead of heart disease medication .

So, you're saying that the viagra makes the meat stiff?